LONDON LECTURE:
In Conversation with Madina Wane: On Research Bias, Science and Education
Anisha Gupta Müller, an art educator, interviews Madina Wane, a biochemist and PhD graduate, about her journey and experiences in the scientific field, particularly focusing on anti-racism. Madina discusses her traditional science education, her work in vaccine development, and her current role in a medical research charity. She highlights the lack of diversity in her field and the importance of community and grassroots initiatives like Black in Immuno, which she co-founded to support Black researchers. Madina emphasizes the interconnectedness of science and human experience, advocating for interdisciplinary approaches and the need for critical reflection in scientific research.
Madina Wane’s profile at Imperial College, London
Book: The Black PhD Experience — Stories of Strength, Courage and Wisdom in UK Academia
Edited by William Ackah, Jacqueline Darkwa, Wayne Mitchell, De-Shaine Murray and Madina Wane
Madina Wane is the co-founder and Treasurer of Black in Immuno
TRANSCRIPT
Anisha
Okay, it is recording. I’m gonna put it in the middle. So hi Madina,
Madina
hi Anisha, nice to see you.
Anisha
I will give a little introduction for this mini podcast conversation thing. Sounds not quite sure what the format will be, but I’m really excited to have you here as part of some research that I’m doing. So to give a little bit of back story, I am a educator. I am involved in teaching theory and history classes at the moment, in bison Schuler, but most crucially, it is part of a research project called artist art and research on transformation of individuals and societies. That research project is basically an investigation, largely also from a scientific standpoint, to what extent art or creativity can have an effect on our society on a political level. So through this project, I’ve basically been creating courses and exploring with students how can or in what ways can art and design affect the way that our society is around us and we something that I have been really interested to continue exploring is how artistic research and scientific research comes together, how it is different, as will become very Clear. I have some experience in academic realms, but I am absolutely not a scientist, so in this conversation, disclaimer to whoever’s listening, I’m like trying to meet you in the middle with your expertise, but essentially, I’m really interested to know, to hear about your work, and also to have a conversation about some topics that we’ve both been dealing with in different but similar realms, specifically racist bias and different forms of discrimination that happen in research in general. I think I got most of that in so, yeah, maybe you want to introduce yourself. We know each other, funnily enough, from school, but haven’t been in touch for a long time. So yeah, what? What are you up to at the moment? What have you been
Madina
Yeah, so I have, I would say, had a fairly like traditional science education path, you know, like, did a bunch of sciences and a levels, so kind of secondary school, late stage secondary education in the UK, and then did a science degree at University for my undergraduate. I did biochemistry specifically, and then continued into kind of post graduate research, and engaged in a PhD, which I completed in 2021 so very much research focused. I was working on fundamental Life Sciences Research for that kind of whole university education, part of my life and my career has also kind of continued along that trajectory. So after my PhD, I worked in a biotechnology company when I was working on kind of vaccine development and other forms of research that was geared towards, you know, therapeutics and drugs that could be used to support patients and in healthcare settings. And now I work for a medical research charity, and I’m not doing kind of on the ground research in a laboratory, but I am still reviewing different research projects and trying to understand how you can get something from, you know, academic or kind of laboratory early stage of research to something that could eventually become a drug or a product that could again benefit patients. So in that sense, I think my trajectory has been quite traditional. I haven’t really had a lot of gaps. I haven’t really had formal education in other disciplines, but as a result of my interest, and I’d say just the wider world around me and the environments that I was seeing in my educational kind of process, I’ve become a lot more involved with the experiences that people have in education, anti racism and education, and also, increasingly in research, and how we do research, a lot of this has been kind of my own interest, so exploring these topics, but I’m increasingly trying to find ways to engage with that and bring that into my like day to day work, which isn’t all. Is the kind of traditional practice in science and research. So, yeah, there’s a lot of kind of being creative about how you kind of, I’m bridging those interests in those kind of worlds together. Wow.
Anisha
Okay, like which, which bit Should I start with? Lots of threads. Yeah. So you already touched on that you’ve been involved in, like, anti racist initiatives or projects kind of related to your work. How, what was the was that, like a specific start point? Was there a moment that you said, Okay, this, I like, I have to address this. How did you get into this intersection?
Madina
A lot of it, I think, was just building, like, piece by piece on kind of the opportunities that were around me. So I stayed in the same university for like my whole undergraduate to PhD education. So I was there for like, a solid eight plus years. And I think that kind of help, because I built a sense of community where I was. But it was, it was pretty obvious. Actually. One of the great things about going to university for me is I went to London. And London, obviously, is very diverse place. And so you have opportunity to, you know, meet people from, like, all different parts of the world, etc. And it was just generally an environment that felt more, yeah, kind of diverse and open than the one that I had growing up. But despite that, as I kind of kept continued in my education, I could clearly see the stark lack of diversity in the people who were teaching me in the people who were doing research, as I started to go more into research. And so, like that facet is, is kind of visually most obvious. And then there’s, you know, another layer where you start to dig into, okay, what kind of research are you doing? What kind of research questions are people addressing? So because, you know, we’re all social beings. We work together. Science is very collaborative. So you’re constantly working with other researchers. And it becomes very obvious when the interactions that you have are maybe not reflective of, you know, the kind of world that you want to see, or you’d hope to see. So over time, I think it was that recognition of, you know, increasing lack of diversity. But also universities in the UK at least, are very hot on like, doing like outreach, so, you know, going into kind of schools and like bringing in different communities, and that gave me the opportunity, especially when I was a PhD student, to start doing some of that work. And I think naturally, when you’re working in spaces that are, you know, you know that they’re trying to tackle a small piece of the problem, right? And when you’re someone who already is thinking quite critically, because you’re in research, and that’s what you do, for me, it kind of built those links quite naturally. So, you know, it’s recognizing the issue, but then, yeah, also having the opportunity to kind of think beyond just the kind of science research that I was doing made me realize that I could actually explore different areas, and I didn’t just have to stick in this very traditional kind of science field.
Anisha
Did you find, you said, increasingly, did you find there was also a connection between kind of the diversity, the further up your the further up institutions, or the higher up the educational qualification you went. Was that the case? Yeah, okay.
Madina
And funnily enough, actually, like a lot of the kind of diversity conversation, at least in the UK, is focused around women, and especially in the in the sciences, it’s like, you know, it’s very widely recognized that there’s, you know, a lack of, kind of gender parity in terms of, again, representation, and also things like pay. So that almost also is a kind of opening to start exploring other aspects of inequity. And so, you know, there’s, I think, just understanding it from that angle. Some people just kind of stay at that level. But for me, it kind of opened doors to say, Okay, people are tackling this one problem. Okay, what about these other problems that I’m also seeing because I’m racialized and I’m aware of, you know, not just my gender, but also my how I’m racialized in these spaces, and who isn’t isn’t around me. It’s just super obvious. Even the reason I bring up the piece on kind of gender inequity is because you’d see promotions happen, and it was very obvious. Yes, especially because, you know, there are, like, in my field, in the life sciences, actually, there’s a lot of women who are at like, earlier career stages. So an undergraduate, especially in a university where I went to, which is science specialist, and so some courses have like, you know, be like, 70% male students, and then, oh, wow, close to 30 or whatever. Okay, the female students obviously not accounting also for, you know, other forms of kind of gender characterization, yeah. But when you’re in a field which feels like it has a bit more like equity, or at least, you know, on a representation level, and then you kind of notice that dwindling more and more as a god. It’s just very, very stark, whereas, for if you’re thinking about like ethnicity in UK academia, because the numbers are already so low, you do see that drop off, but it’s sometimes harder to notice because it already starts out as being pretty poor representation. But yeah, that’s definitely something that I’ve noticed, and it’s a big theme that a lot of people are addressing now, after some recognition of the problems. Yeah,
Anisha
Was that also connected to I remember one of the projects you shared with me, or is this? I don’t know if that’s directly connected with the black in immuno, yeah. Do you want to, like, share a little bit about that, or Yeah, that?
Madina
So in 2020 there was a big movement of, I guess, for want of a better word, like grassroots movements, communities of academics, researchers of different fields, who came together because they recognized a lot of the issues around racism in their fields. So in 2020 a lot of this was focused around black researchers, because of the whole Black Lives Matter movement, and the incidents that happened that kind of triggered this big reckoning. I guess black and immuno was something that basically, a lot of these were social media, okay, right? Yeah, because of, because of the like isolation that you get when you’re again, I’m going to talk from a perspective of being a black researcher, because that’s, yeah, that’s my experience in the UK, and also in other in other countries, because there’s so much isolation within your institution, you basically have to go outside of your institution to find community. So a lot of us were already on social media, and that’s how, not just for black researchers, a lot of kind of groups that are more marginalized in the Academy have had to do that work, of like finding other people outside of Yes. So this kind of networks or interactions already kind of existed, but I guess there was this kind of spark to, like, maybe formalize some of those connections. And yeah, a bunch of us black immunologists kind of found each other through social media and decided to create a parallel group that we were seeing in other fields. And yeah, we’ve been doing the work for four years now. Like our group is officially nonprofit. Different groups have kind of taken different approaches. It’s all been volunteer led, all with the mission of, kind of amplifying the research of black immunologists, all those working in immunology related fields, creating connections between people in that in that field, and creating some kind of yeah opportunity to promote their research, or, you know, promote kind of career opportunities. It’s so, yeah, it was, you know, driven by people who wanted community, like myself, because, yeah, I didn’t really see any, I think I was probably the only black PhD student in my cohort, in my department, I think I knew maybe, like one other black PhD or two, two black PhD students in my building like that has, you know, a couple departments at least,
Anisha
And it’s been which is also completely unreflective of the reality of London also, one has to say, because sometimes these excuses come out where they’re like, Well, I mean in this context, like there are no excuses.
Madina
And it’s also, yeah, it’s, I think the numbers are one thing. It’s also like the experiences that people have when they’re in these spaces and the isolation, the isolation definitely doesn’t kind of help that. But, I mean, we can get into my other project later, which talks a bit more about this. But, yeah, the the black and immuno project has been going for four years. It’s like, I mean, it’s like a labor of love for everyone who works on it, like everyone who started it was a PhD student, or, you know, early career person, or, you know, postdoc, or someone who wasn’t necessarily in academia, but kind of adjacent and like, it’s kind of telling that that level of work is done by people who are at the most precarious stages, like. I was, I literally helped found this organization whilst I was finishing my thesis during the pandemic. Like, it was, it was the most and, like, looking back, I’m like, Oh, why did I decide to do this? But like, I needed that, like, mentally finish it also, yeah, like, the pandemic was awful. Like, mentally, like, you know, things weren’t super great. Yeah? I Yeah, writing the thesis is already really difficult, and then seeing all this racist violence in front of you and being like, also
Anisha
In your field, it was all connected to your field, to in one way or another, yeah?
Madina
And I think just feeling like I have to do something, and I have to be with people who care and understand. So I think a lot of us do go into this work, because it’s kind of our only, like, we just need it to, like, keep doing it at all.
Anisha
Yeah, I think it’s really interesting how you frame it also, because, of course, I’ve looked at the website and you frame it as, like, not only, I mean, a necessity for you to even be in an academic sphere, but also like a kind of type of community that was made outside of the institutions, or that was made between other like on the margins of the institutions. But something that we’ve talked about before, which I wanted to also ask you about, is that with initiatives like this, or with projects like this, there’s always a risk of it being instrumentalized, or it being brought in to a white institution to say, look how diverse we are. Look how we’ve managed this. And you very clearly said it was for you and like amongst you, but we both share this suspicion of some conversations around representation. Have you well with this project or with other projects? Have you experienced those kind of things where you had to be intentional with how it was framed? Or what do you how do you feel about this discussion around diversity and representation in your field? It’s a really very good question.
Madina
No, it’s a really good one. It’s a really difficult one, because a lot of us like again, from the point that we do this because we’re feeling isolated and we want community. Having that represent or having people around us, having those social connections is very valuable. So like, of course, you want representation when you’re Yeah, you’re getting people around you who you feel share your experiences, etc, etc. So I understand why that’s kind of like a first go to and because it’s so visible, obviously institutions love it, because then they can get, yeah, I’ve had so many pictures for another time, but, and you know, in some ways, I have to say that, you know, all of us who have been doing this kind of work like, you know, another part is resources. Like, we need the resources to be able to do what we do and to be able to distribute that and create opportunities that we want for our communities. And so there’s, there’s always an element of, like, a back and forth. And like, you know, we have, like, sponsors, institutional sponsors, who will provide money and, you know, we’ll share their logo and stuff like that, like it’s, I think there’s different approaches you can take, and I’m kind of evolving where I want to place myself and my efforts. But yeah, currently, a lot of those of these programs because you’re working with people who are already in the academic system, so you’re trying to provide, you know, resources and support to allow them to survive and thrive in these systems, and they’re kind of inherently connected. The problem is, when you want to do something that goes above and beyond that and is kind of more critical and challenging, I think, you know, at least with the current project, like, it’s not really at that point yet, because we’re focused on, like, supporting individuals and individual researchers. But maybe, you know, once you start thinking a bit more about, like, how research is done, then that becomes, I think, a more challenging area to kind of get institutional backing or interesting, like, implement some kind of change, because it critiques a lot of the kind of, especially, even if you’re thinking about like, how researchers are rewarded. Like, I think it can undermine a lot of people’s like, personal rewards are kind of moving through the system as well as the institutions themselves. So
Anisha
You kind of led me to my next question, which is really good. The kind of response to my critique that it is critiques of racism make sense in artistic fields. They make sense in cultural fields, and they are kind of academic spaces where we’re dealing with constructs where we’re dealing with socially defined norms, and that is kind of our wishy washy. This is like what I’ve got. This is our wishy washy realm that has nothing to do with the hard science of medicine or immunology or whatever the scientific field is. It has nothing to do with statistics. Those are facts and the other ones are subjectivities and opinions. How do you find social discourse to play a role or not to play a role in the science field, fields that you work in?
Madina
Yeah, it’s, it’s quite a painful conversation to try and have with and I say this is, I don’t think I’ve actually had this conversation that much, but I kind of, I see the discourses, and it’s probably something I’ll probably get a bit more embedded in eventually. But this idea that science, you know, the hard sciences, are kind of separate from any human involvement, you know, like the natural world, like, yeah, it just exists. But science is how we understand it, right? It all comes from humans. Like, we create categories that aren’t, you know, that we create these categories so we can understand the world around us. So it’s weird to me that, like, somehow we can remove the human from that equation. Because, you know, science doesn’t exist without humans and sciences. You know, the whole project of science is this, you know, constant kind of experimentation. And like experimenting to like better understand something and testing things and reevaluating things and reinterpreting things as you learn new information. So it’s never, it’s always in flux, right? So it’s weird to me that people can think there’s always kind of like objective truths, and then, you know, just at a basic level, if you just look at the history of, like, how a lot of science is constructed and used, like, kind of operationalized, like, there’s no credible argument that, like, science is somehow separate, should be considered separate from, you know, kind of Humanities and Arts and other subjects that have maybe more of a maybe more like, focused on social aspects, but yeah, like that. They’re inherently linked. And I actually think, like, it’s frustrating, because, like, I do see the value of the like scientific method, you know, it has its own flaws. Obviously, there’s different scientific methods and approaches to science as well, which is a whole other aspect we can get into. But our fundamental level, if you’re not recognizing the human involvement in science, you’re also just doing bad science and bad research. So yeah, there’s a lot of constructs in science that cause,
Anisha
Yeah, I like, how you say that. Of course, everything you know we talk about these constructed nature of social issues and all this. But of course, you know, if you’re trying to investigate something, you have to keep testing it, and you might keep coming up with new answers. And that’s all part of the the process of scientific investigations. I also feel this inherent, like, I mean, maybe this connects, in a way, to higher education institutions and academia in general, that, like those institutions were also historically, like you mentioned, key, the key players in sedimenting racism as a as an institution itself. Yeah, that it, it wasn’t something that came about in any by any means, kind of naturally. It was very methodically and also scientifically founded in in Western institutions, such as in academic institutions. And I, I always find that there’s a very strange kind of ahistorical like, you say, analysis of how things went. And in my context, there’s, like, a lot of discussion around, for instance, decolonizing universities. I know it’s been here too, but for me, I just like I, of course, I learned this from, from other activists, but the idea of decolonizing an institution that was created, as far, you know, as far as the western context is concerned, as a colonial institution. How do you decolonize the police? How do you decolonize, you know, prisons. For me, it sometimes sounds as ridiculous as that. Of course, there are other, you know, institutions of education that have been around long before, but kind of the mainstream, dominant canon that we are taught. It’s the same, also across the board, and across the world, which is very horrifying in a lot of senses. Do you think, what do you think the role is of education in in like, I mean, this is such an obvious question, we kind of already talked about this. But like, in your maybe in your specific field, how was it for you personally, in terms of actual content? Were there, what would you have wanted?
Madina
I often kind of defend, sounds weird, defend education. Like, obviously, you know, I’m sure we, and many people who are listening to this agree that education is really important, just as a general concept. I think my experience from having done like, especially, I. Like, postgraduate studies, where you’re a lot more independent, it has been a really valuable time for me to, like, figure out what I want to learn. Like, yeah, I had a research project and, you know, it kind of like had this project plan in this specific field, etc, etc. But just being in an, you know, an institution that has access to resources and different opportunities, like learning opportunities, or, like even me having access to, like, other educational, you know, other academic Institute. Together, I went to a science, pretty much only science, only university, so being able, but I was in London, so I would go to, like, you know, like LSE for lectures sometimes, or like other places where I’d get exposed to other topics that I wouldn’t otherwise in my institution. And, you know, being able to do do that for several years, because the whole purpose of you being there is to learn, whereas, you know, in other careers, sometimes it’s a bit harder to get the space and the opportunity to have that time for kind of self education. Obviously, the way that institution is structured means that, you know, you might only be learning about things in a certain type of way, and also you won’t necessarily have access to other forms of education that, you know, it’s very formalized, so you won’t be necessarily learning from people who have like, different experiences in different settings. Like it can be quite limited, and because there are, especially when you think about like, academic research, because of the way that it’s structured and it rewards people for, like, certain forms of research. And you think about how it’s funded only certain types of research and research topics topics are funded, so you’re already kind of skewing what people can learn right, and also what incentives they have to learn about when I think about deconstructing the racism in, you know, life sciences, for example, there’s not many funders who probably have a huge interest in doing that work, because, because racism is already embedded in our society, like to kind of pick away at it. Like, what kind of like data researchers, yeah, like, and there’s, you know, very little, I guess, PR tick box that you could do, because, like you said, a lot of these institutions were funded for, like, colonial, you know, racist projects. So to unpick, to start unpicking on the racism kind of pulls away their threads. So they’ll only really be willing to fund that up to a certain level, I guess, and also will only be willing to, it’s like one thing to do the kind of theory and the research and do the education piece, but then if you’re also going to act on your findings, that, again, kind of threatens that they’re very core, yeah, so it’s, I think, you just have to kind of use the resources like for what they are, and understand that there’s other things available. Like, I learn a lot from people who work in, like community organizing, and, you know, just like talking to family members friends who are like in working in different spaces or do different things,
Anisha
maybe that, I mean, that leads on nicely, also, like I was going to ask you what kind of alternative methods, I mean, you’ve already said grassroots and kind of outside the academic way of researching, but are there, like, particular approaches that you have found helpful to kind of bring together what Seems like two different worlds?
Madina
That’s a really difficult question. Really difficult question, I think I would say, yeah, definitely, well thought through. It’s something that I’m still trying to figure out. I think there are people who are trying to do that work. You know what? I think the main thing is, like, you have to be willing to, like, not just like, stay in the ivory tower, right? Because, again, with that whole idea that, you know, it’s kind of restricted to certain types of research and certain ways of thinking, etc, like, you have to be willing to just like, go, like, not get funded for it, go outside of things like that, yeah. And I guess I one of the reasons why I am interested in research and the sciences is because, like, I want to, like, be able to do something tangible with the information and the learnings I have. I’m not someone who’s really just interested in, like, oh, like, theoretically Yeah, or just like, yeah exactly, or information and knowledge, for like, the sake of information and knowledge. So I think if you have the mindset of, like, using your knowledge for action, then it means that you will, I guess, go out and, like, find ways to apply that. And sometimes. It’s hard because, like, you know, my field, you know, we’re working on, like, for example, like drug development and things like that. And again, you’re quite restricted by, like, who’s allowed to be in these spaces, and like, who has access to certain things. But you know, even if you go out and, like, talk to different immunities, about, like, you know, understand, like, the needs of different communities, and like, Who’s Who is science actually benefiting? And like, you know, doing some learning about history, about, like, who science has harmed and how, like, you know, drug development has harmed people. Yeah, I think then you can kind of start to use that knowledge for action. But I think if you and you start to learn from people who, yeah, will have different viewpoints about the kind of role of research and education, but if you just stay within traditional educational establishments, I don’t think you’ll get that picture. So that doesn’t really answer your question of like, who’s doing things differently? I guess it’s one approach that you can use to start doing things differently yourself. Because, yeah, sometimes you just have to be creative and create what you don’t necessarily see. I think that’s what I’m hopefully trying to do. It’s hard because, like, you know, my field, you know, we’re working on, like, for example, like drug development and things like that. And again, you’re quite restricted by, like, who’s allowed to be in these spaces, and like, who has access to certain things. But you know, even if you go out and, like, talk to different communities about, like, you know, understand, like, the needs of different communities, and like, Who’s Who is science actually benefiting? And like, you know, doing some learning about history, about, like, who science has harmed and how, like, you know, drug development has harmed people. Yeah, I think then you can kind of start to use that knowledge for action. But I think if you and you start to learn from people who, yeah, will have different viewpoints about the kind of role of research and education, but if you just stay within traditional educational establishments, I don’t think you’ll get that picture. So that doesn’t really answer your question of like, who’s doing things differently? I guess it’s one approach that you can use to start doing things differently yourself.
Anisha
yeah, sometimes you just have to be creative and create what you don’t necessarily see. I think that’s what I’m hopefully trying to do, for sure, and like, I mean the project that you were telling me about earlier, with the connecting PhD experiences, maybe you want to share a bit about that that’s quite a like concrete, yeah, it’s subject that you’re doing, again, just driven out of the need to kind of understand, like, your own experience.
Madina
So to give some context, I’ve been working on editing, I guess, a kind of anthology of experiences or essays from black PhD students in the UK, kind of across different fields and across different stages of the kind of PhD cycle. So from, you know, application stage all the way to, kind of finishing up and thinking about next steps. And I think actually, that’s been really valuable, because something that’s not always taken very seriously in science is, like, people’s experiences and like, you know, the kind of people’s stories, and that people focus so much on like numbers and like hard data, putting in air quotes, because it’s a silly, you know, definition, and they don’t necessarily take value in, yeah, the kind of more like personal, the knowledge that comes from people’s personal experiences. And it’s one of the reasons why, why racism is allowed to be is continues to be perpetuated, is because people who experience racism, their experiences are not taken seriously and not acted on, but and, yeah, so this book is trying to, like, bring to light a lot of these experiences that, like, the experience of black PhD students In UK hasn’t really been kind of looked at in depth. So it was something that myself and my co editors thought was kind of like a big gap, but also it allowed us to again build a community. So we have like a collective and, you know, we have discussions amongst ourselves, and people are able to have a platform to reflect and share their experiences, and also just touch base and hear about how people are doing and like, oh, this person’s graduated on their PhD. Like it’s not just about the research. It Like It’s so it was so intentional for us to focus on community first, and then, like, build out a project from that, and obviously, if it can have an impact and teach people about, you know, these experiences, great, but first and foremost, we want to support the people who haven’t had that kind of sense of community because of the institutions and systems that they’ve, you know, had to navigate through. Okay,
Anisha
I’m just looking at the time and I’m thinking, maybe, maybe I’ll have, like a last, last question or two. What would you say? I have two things. What would you say to someone who is already in the world of research and academia and is kind of just realizing that their subjectivity plays such a huge role in their work, but also that the things they have learned so far come from a specific subjectivity. Yeah, if they have no connection really to grassroots, maybe that would be your suggestion. But like, what? Which? What would you suggest would be their first step? Because I also have this image of scientists being alone in their research, in their labs, or, like in their offices, kind of being very much in their heads alone.
Madina
Um, what you know, like, it’s like the piece I was saying before, like science is very collaborative. So, like, actually, there’s a lot of space for talking with different people. But yeah, I mean, obviously, if you’re kind of talking amongst people who already thinking the same, that doesn’t necessarily help. I mean, a lot of the stuff that I did was just, you know, going to, like, I kind of said before, like, learning from other fields. Like, yeah, I think I’ve said this to other people, but most of the kind of critiques of science that I’ve learned, that I feel has made me a more thoughtful, critical scientist, has come from other fields. So it’s come from people who study history, especially because once you understand the history of like, you know, let’s take, I don’t know, even if you look, if you look at something like genetics, for example, and ethnicity, and there are still so many scientists who have who believe in some kind of concept of or, let’s say, race as well. I mean race, ethnicity. These times, social contracts are used very entertainably, but who have some attachment to the fact that there, like, is a genetic basis for ethnicity or race? And sometimes it’s like, you know? It’s like, oh, well, you know, you see, like, this gene law in this population, etc, etc. And once you start like, digging down and the history and where that comes from, and you understand, oh, okay, so we kind of got this from. Where does the scientific where does the concept of race even begin? Like, how was it created? Because, like I said before, all these things are human categories to understand the world, it becomes really obvious where the flaws are, or, you know what the kind of caveats are. So I think understanding history is a really big part of it, and there are so many like, there’s so many resources. Like, it’s really not hard to find. Like, you can literally just Google the history of race science, or, like, the history of whatever field you’re in. Yeah, you know, you can add on whatever you know interest word you’re interested in, if it’s racism, then you can add in racism. Like, it’s not hard to find information. We’re researchers. We know how to find information. Like, like, maybe, maybe you’re not aware of the problems before, but once you know that this is a topic that you could delve into. Like, it’s not hard to find that information. Loads of people who have written on it, theorized on it, challenged it, so for sure, yeah, it’s it’s an easy standpoint.
Anisha
Yeah, I also like to say that it doesn’t like there’s this fear that maybe people who have been working in a specific way for a very long time have that they will no longer become relevant, or that somehow, this is a niche side topic that isn’t really, I don’t know, doesn’t have much of an impact to the mainstream teaching of a topic. But I find that actually, you know, if you want to be a thorough researcher, like you were saying before, it will only make your research better, it will only take you in directions that question more things that open up new pathways. And I think that that’s something that we should like really embrace, regardless of who one is as a researcher or what field. I mean, this is me talking from like artistic research and research, but maybe as a final, final question, yes, what would you say for someone like yourself, who was going into, starting out in a, I don’t know, PhD, or going into somewhere a bit more focused, intensive scientific Research, like other things that you would tell yourself before, before going into it,
Madina
21 year old Madina, yes, that was actually undergraduate, yes, but be aware of the debt. Yes.
Anisha
Okay, I hear you.
Madina
And actually I should say My PhD was fairly well funded, so I consider myself lucky. What would I tell myself, hmm,
Anisha
or maybe the same thing that you would tell other researchers.
Madina
I think I’m still trying to figure out how to have this conversation.
Anisha
It’s fine. You don’t need to answer anything.
Madina
I think maybe what I would tell myself is, no, when I did my A levels, I actually I did so just go, like, way back. I did sciences, but I also did history, like, right until, like, the end of my secondary education, which is completely optional. Didn’t you need it for university? Because I did science in uni and the UK system, like, only cares about three subjects. And I really love history. And I, like, loved it at school. Still love it now. And like, you know, I did like one kind of side module when I was at uni. I don’t know. I wish maybe I’d kind of explored that at an earlier stage. So maybe morein my kind of undergraduate level. Sometimes I do. Wonder, like, have I ended up in science? Because I’m just like, you know, that was kind of like a straightforward trajectory. And both my parents studied sciences, and they’re like, You should be a doctor. I was like, No, I’m gonna do biochemistry and stuff. And I joke with like, one of my friends, we’re both like, we both did like sciences. She did geology, I did life sciences. And we both like, oh, we kind of want to go back and do a second PhD in like, studying, like sociology in the context of science and like technology studies. And, yeah, it you know, I think your trajectory just kind of takes you on this path. So, like, I wouldn’t like change it, but it would maybe have been nice to be able to explore some of those elements earlier, but it’s hard because, again, it’s not, it’s not something that is, like a super obvious choice, like, even at school, right? You learn science separately from, you know, some people do history. I actually did history of science, yeah, which was really fun. And maybe that’s what helped bring together my kind of thinking, interdisciplinary, yeah? So let me away. But just to kind of leave it at, sorry, yeah. Like, one final note on this is I’ve realized as well, sometimes you can give people all the facts, but if they’ve got a specific, like frame of mind, like, I often wonder, you know, I’m someone who my parents both come from, like, previously colonized countries, you know, we’re a black family, so obviously racism has been a thing in our, you know, since I was, like, before I could talk. And I think that set me up to understand, like, my kind of, like, history education, and I guess science education, in this, like, maybe a different way than someone who hasn’t had those experiences would. So it’s really hard to know, like, you know, even if you give someone information and knowledge how they’re gonna then think about it and, like, apply it in their own life. I don’t think it’s something that education, like you know, knowledge sharing itself can do. I think I don’t know what creates those conditions for people to have different points of view. But, yeah, it’s definitely a limitation.
Anisha
Okay, any last, last, last sentences, final, final sentences.
Madina
No, just a thank you for letting me, like, waffle. And I love it. I love so many things to say, yeah, it’s one of the things that that is difficult. I think about being in, like a system where, especially science, is quite rigid. There’s not always so much room for this kind of, like, philosophical thinking, yeah. So it can again, it can be a little isolating to be like, Oh, I’m seeing all these things, but like, we’re in the all these structured systems, and I don’t really know how to address it with, like, people I work with, or, you know, co researchers. So it’s really valuable to have a space where someone like lets you reflect on all of that, and, yeah, also like gives you some, you know, has their own perspective from, like, a different field.
Anisha
Nice. I’m glad to hear that. And yeah, thanks so much. I’ll attach some links of your of your work, and people can look it up and get involved. Also, if it is, thanks, bye. You.